Izerlan: I can see where you're coming from Ice, but we're talking about giving people the "option" to set their equipment to private.

In the first case of the noob having soloed my way to level 50, I would  presumably have just reached the lower edge of awesomeness myself,  though I may not realize it. I've found no guild, run no flashpoints or  operations, nor talked to any experienced players along the way, who  would be able to explain to me these basics?

It would be frustrating to try to look at someone's leet gear and have  it hidden, but I could chat with the uber-pwner to gain his wisdom as  well as a peek at his build. There's the internet, which will have  databases full of weapon and armor stats, and breakdowns of how the best  classes go together.

This being said, the uber-pwner would be entirely within his rights to  hide his equipment and skill tree. Perhaps his Guild is trying out new  skill combinations to make them more effective in PvP and they don't  want anyone emulating them. Maybe his Guild is at war with another  Guild, and he's hiding his trinket slots for an extra nasty surprise.  Maybe he's new too, and doesn't want people laughing at his piecemeal  character build.

In your second example, I do admit that it would make raid leaders jobs  more difficult if raiders hide their settings. I would liken gear and  skill tree privacy to your resume though - if you want a job with a  company that hasn't heard of you before, then you have to show it to be  taken seriously. This doesn't mean that you have to walk around with it  pinned to the front of your robes, though. Again, this is why it's the  *option* to hide gear and skill. You could presumably toggle it, much as  you would toggle viewing your helmet.

A third example, would be the person who wants to just play on their  own. There are people who join MMOs to play the single player game, and  that's well within their rights. Setting their gear to private would be a  subtle indicator that no, they don't want to join your group, and no,  they don't want to join your guild. They're playing on their own, thank  you very much.

While I wouldn't agree with hiding gear and skills permanently, giving  players the option to toggle it on and off would not harm actual  gameplay in any way, would increase the privacy of individual players,  and encourage communication between players

IceRazor: Wow, I agree with almost all of what you just wrote, but I still don't see how a private option is necessary.

In the case of the noob soloing to level 50, you are correct that he/she  has the option to chat with the player of pure awesomeness to try to  learn his ways. However, this option relies on the other player being  willing to explain things like a mature adult. This is the Internet  after all, so can we really expect other players to show patience and  understanding? Maybe it's just me being cynical, or perhaps the fact  that I've had too many negative encounters in MMOs, but I don't trust  other players' attitudes.

I agree with you that hiding a particularly effective skill tree or  trinket setup would be a good reason to have a private toggle option.  However, how often do people find an unconventional combination that  actually works well? I'd argue that it's very rare, especially with the  rise of websites such as Elitist Jerks. These sites analyze everything  to the point that nothing is secretive anymore at the level cap of  popular MMOs. Perhaps having a toggle option would foster an atmosphere  in which players experiment with various specs, but I'm unconvinced that  developers can ever balance their classes to a point where multiple  specs in the same skill tree are actually worth trying.

I agree completely with your analogy to a resume when asking to join a  raid group. In fact, I agree with it so much, it's a comparison that I  was planning to make myself. No raid leader - at least not any raid  leader that I've ever grouped with - is going to accept a player without  being able to inspect their gear or spec setup. The resume analogy may  make some uncomfortable, because it brings up that negative connection  some people draw between raiding and a real life job. I know that isn't  what you were suggesting, Izerlan, so I wanted to point that out.  Getting back on point, can we agree that if there was a private toggle  option, no player who uses it should ever expect to be invited into a  legitimate raid group?

I understand that some players do play MMOs as single-player games, and I  think that that crowd may actually be quite large in TOR. However, I  don't think a private toggle option is necessary to facilitate that play  style. In most MMOs that I've played, they have much more explicit  means of achieving that goal. Disabling private messages and leaving  public chat channels are the most obvious ways. Who cares if they can  still see the gear or skill trees that you're using? It's not as if they  can actually bother you about them if you don't let them.

Again, I fail to see how having a toggle to hide your gear or skill trees is actually necessary to foster any type of gameplay

Izerlan: First, I notice that you're now arguing whether it's necessary to have a  privacy toggle. I would say it's no more necessary to gameplay as it is  to have toggleable helmets, or weather effects, or eight classes  instead of four. What's necessary to foster gameplay is an entirely  different conversation that we can cheerfully have at another time.

Whether it's a valuable feature, ultimately, remains to be seen. My  brain can only come up with so many scenarios, but putting the feature  in and testing it in beta would be the only way to see if it works. My  thought is that, as a feature, it would require a period of balancing,  regardless of their final decision about whether or not to use it. But  even if it goes into the game, and sits there, and nobody toggles their  skills and gear to private, does that mean no one ever will?

The most important question is, would this feature detract from  the game experience? Whether it's new players hiding their shitty builds  to avoid mockery or their okay builds because they want to keep to  themselves, or old players who don't want to have to explain where they  got their epic lightsaber or who as a part of a guild don't need to  apply to raids any more, or roleplayers who are vying for more realism  in their game, where someone else wouldn't be able to run up to you and  know what you're capable of or the exact stats of your clothing, I can  see how certain niche types of gameplay might be slightly improved by  the feature, but I can't think of any part of the game that requires you  to read someone else's skills or stats. If you're a raid boss and  someone doesn't want to give up the goods, then the simple answer is not  to let them into your raid. I don't think that detracts from a raid, or  the raid boss's job, in fact I believe it makes it easier to weed out  the players who don't know enough to apply with their privacy toggle off.

Is it necessary? No. Could it be useful? Yes. Most importantly will it detract in any way from the game experience? No

IceRazor: I think you misunderstand my use of the word necessary. I'm not arguing  that a private toggle function wouldn't facilitate a certain gameplay,  my point is that it doesn't add any important functionality that can't  be achieved without it. To point this out case by case in the examples  you brought up:

• "new players hiding their shitty builds to avoid mockery" - This  can already be done by simply putting anyone that harasses you on your  ignore list. Or, to go to an extreme, just turn incoming private  messages off and leave public chat channels.

• "hiding... their okay builds because they want to keep to  themselves" - Why is this important? If someone can see your build... so  what? It doesn't change anything.

• "old players who don't want to have to explain where they got their  epic  lightsaber or who as a part of a guild don't need to apply to  raids any  more" - Again, I don't see the point of this. If someone  harasses you, you simply put them on ignore.

• "roleplayers who are vying for more realism in their game, where  someone  else wouldn't be able to run up to you and know what you're  capable of  or the exact stats of your clothing" - Possibly, but would  this actually change roleplay in any significant way? I don't think so.  I've never heard any roleplayers use the "Inspect" function as a part of  their roleplay.

I don't see what type of gameplay this feature would facilitate  that isn't already supported. I can, however, think of negatives that it  would bring to the community. For instance, it would be another thing separating the casual and hardcore crowd, as it was in this thread when Georg Zoeller suggested it.

Again, I don't see the type of gameplay that needs a private toggle in order to function or be improved.

Izerlan: It's not an important functionality. It's functionality. Hiding your  helmet isn't important, but it's already in there. Bioware creates games  that are all about making hard choices, so I don't think there is any  reason not to give players this choice, especially if it's toggleable.  Players and groups will adapt, it certainly won't be a gamekiller.

The thread you posted seemed heavily in favor of giving players the option to toggle privacy settings. Yes, there is a debate, but there is a  debate about every new feature that is introduced, and, let's be honest, there is always going to be a rift between casual and hardcore players, regardless of whether they hide from one another or not.

You don't see the type of gameplay that needs a privacy toggle, but it's not the type of gameplay, it's the type of player.